011213 20 Q. Mr. Cassell, I'm going to ask you: If you're 01:14:43 20 aside whatever you're claiming privilege for,
0t12:37 21 in court and Judge Marra said to you, counsel, what is 01:14:45 21 right, so I'm not -- I'm not asking you right now
0112:42 22 the factual basis for your allegation that Professor 01:14:47 22 to tell me anything you're claiming as
01:1247 23 Dershowitz abused other minors, what would you say? And 01:14,49 23 privileged.
0112:51 24 if you wouldn't say something because it was privileged, 01:14:49 24 BY MR. SIMPSON:
01:12'52 25 then don't include it. What would you tell the judge 01:14:50 25 Q. Tell me whatever is not privileged that
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0114:53 1 supports that allegation. 01:16:52 1 began, you know, I guess what we would call
01:14:55 2 A. Okay. The privileged information, obviously, 01:16:54 2 knock-and-talks, knocking on doors to try to get to some
01:14:58 3 you're asking me not to reveal at this point. 01:16:57 3 of these girls, and they would get to the girls, and
01:14:59 4 Q. I'm asking you -- I'm asking you to tell me 0116:59 4 many of them initially were -- were afraid to explain
01:75930 5 the nonprivileged information. And I'm not agreeing 0117:02 5 what had happened.
01:15:04 6 with your privilege assertion -- 0117:03 6 But as they -- as they continued talking to
01:15:04 7 A. Sure. 01:17:06 7 them, the girls began to explain that what was happening
01:15:07 8 Q. -- but for purposes of this question -- 0117:09 8 was, they were going over to Epstein's house under the
01:15:07 9 A. For purposes of this question. 01:17:13 9 guise of giving a massage, and when they got there, the
01:1507 10 Q. -- I'm accepting it. 01'1717 10 massage was, in fact, sexual activity.
01:15:07 11 A. All right. 0117:19 11 And for many of the girls, I think, as I say
0115:08 12 Q. Putting aside what you claim is privileged, I 01:17:22 12 around 23, 24, something along those lines, they were
0115:10 13 want to know everything that's the factual basis for 01:1725 13 underage. They were under the age of consent in
01:15:12 14 including the allegation about other minors. 0117:28 14 Florida.
01:15:14 15 A. Okay. Privileged information which I'm not 01.17:28 15 And so each and every one of those events was
0115'17 16 disclosing in any way would have interacted with a vast 01:17:30 16 a crime being perpetrated -- and let's be clear, not
011620 17 body of other information. 01:17:35 17 just being perpetrated by Epstein, but by other people
01:15:22 18 The vast body of other information would have 01:17.36 18 who were involved there at the mansion.
01:15:24 19 started with an 89-page police report from the Palm 01:17:38 19 And so what the -- the Palm Beach Police
0115:29 20 Beach Police Department that showed for about a 0117.40 20 Department was putting together was that this mansion in
01:15:30 21 six-month period in 2005, there was sexual abuse of 01:17:43 21 Florida was the nest of sexual abuse of young girls here
01:15:35 22 minor girls going on on a daily basis, in -- whenever 01:17-48 22 in Florida that involved, literally, in the -- in this
01:15:40 23 Jeffrey Epstein was in his Palm Beach mansion. 01:17:53 23 period of time, more than a hundred events that they
01:15:44 24 And on some cases, it was going on not once, 01:17:57 24 were able to document of sexual abuse.
01:15:48 25 not twice, but three times during the day. That -- let 0117:59 25 And when you put that together with the
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01:15:51 1 me just be clear. I mean, I -- I referred to the 01:18:01 1 pattern or practice that was being revealed there, there
01:15:53 2 89-page police report. I have offered to put it into 011803 2 were hundreds of acts of sexual abuse going on in the
01:15:55 3 the record if -- if it would speed things up, but let's 01:1806 3 mansion.
01-15:58 4 just talk about some of the things that are in that 01:18:07 4 But then what becomes -- and this is where I
01:15:59 5 89-page police report. 0118:10 5 indicated that, you know, the answer would continue on.
0116:02 6 This was a -- a very intensive investigation 01:1812 6 The -- the problem was that the evidence was starting to
51:18:05 7 that the Palm Beach Police Department put together. 01:1814 7 show that this was a much broader series of events. For
011607 8 They did, for example, what are called trash covers; 011818 8 example, there were flight logs showing that Mr. Epstein
01:16:09 9 that is when trash came out of the -- of the mansion of 01:18:21 9 was then flying with underaged girls, and those flight
01:16:13 10 Epstein, the police would intercept the trash and then 0118:27 10 logs, you know, as -- as the flight logs began to
01:16.16 11 they would go through the trash and look for 01-18'29 11 develop, for example, we have seen, I know in the last
01:16:17 12 incriminating information. 0118:32 12 day or two here, one underage girl was Virginia Roberts
0116'19 13 And what they began to discover was memo 0118:35 13 who is on the flight, you know, with Epstein, and with
01,1022 14 pads -- and I say "memo pads," let's be clear, pad after 01:18:39 14 Maxwell, and those sorts of things.
01:1026 15 pad after pad, or I guess I should say, sheet after 01:18:41 15 So you start to look at the flight logs and
01:16:28 16 sheet after sheet that had the name of a girl, and then 01:1643 16 you see what's going on is not just events that are
0016:33 17 there was a notation of something to the effect of a 01:18,46 17 occurring in Florida, but it's occurring on a
01:16:35 18 massage. 01:18:50 18 multi-state basis, which now starts to make it a federal
01:16:36 19 And so the Palm Beach Police Department began 01:18:53 19 crime. For example, we are seeing evidence that --
01:16:39 20 tracking down, well, wait a minute, these -- these are 01:18:56 20 let's just talk about Virginia Roberts since she's
01:16'41 21 girls giving massages and they don't seem to have any 01:1858 21 central to this case.
01:16:44 22 specialized training in massages; they don't seem to be 01,18:59 22 We are seeing Virginia Roberts being flown
01,16.47 23 masseuses in any sense of the term; what's going on 01:19:02 23 from Florida to New York where she's in the clutches of
01:1047 24 here? 01:19.07 24 Jeffrey Epstein who is sexually abusing her, you know,
01:16:50 25 And so the Palm Beach Police Department 011912 25 many times a week. And not just Jeffrey Epstein, but
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01:19:15 1 other powerful persons. For example, Ghislaine Maxwell 01:21:37 1 particular girl had been sexually abused.
01:19:18 2 is there with him on all of these flights and apparently 01:21:40 2 What the Palm Beach Police Department had
01,19:21 3 being involved in the abuse. 01:21:42 3 discovered was brazen, notorious, repetitive activity
01:1924 4 Indeed -- and so you -- you have -- you 01:2146 4 sometimes occurring as often as three times in a
01:1927 5 have that. You also start to see on the flight logs, 01,21:48 5 particular day. And so that led me to believe that the
01:19:30 6 what to my mind are some very sinister things, 01:21:51 6 sexual activity that was going on in Florida was such
01:19:34 7 suggesting that the pattern is not just confined to sort 01:21:54 7 that someone who was a regular house guest there would
01:19:36 8 of, you know, the girls that are there in Florida, but 01:21:57 8 have immediately come to the conclusion that, well,
01:19:39 9 it -- it is extending more broadly. 0122:00 9 look, gee, there are these underage girls coming in here
01,19A1 10 Like one of the -- to my mind, sinister and 01:22:0310 and they -- they seem to be -- you know, they don't seem
01:1544 11 scary things on the flight logs is, we see, you know, 01:2206 11 to be here to be doing, you know, business activities;
01:19:48 12 Virginia Roberts, who we know has been sexually abused, 0122:0812 they -- they might be here doing other kinds of
01:19:51 13 and we see Jeffrey Epstein, and then we see on the 01:22:11 13 activities. So those would be the kinds of things that
01:19:54 14 flight logs one female. 0122:13 14 would -- would have formed the factual basis.
01:19:55 15 That's kind of an odd notation for a flight 01:22:17 15 There are other things as well, but I'm sure
01:19:59 16 log because, you know, typically, I understand the 0122:18 16 you want to ask other questions in addition to that. So
01:20:02 17 flight logs, the purpose is, well, if something happens 01:22:22 17 I'll stop there, but those -- that's -- I think gives
0120:04 18 with the flight, or there's some question about who was 01:22:24 18 you a small flavor of the kind of evidence that, you
01:20:05 19 on it, you want to know who -- who the person was who 01:22:28 19 know, was form -- undergirding the allegations that were
01:20:07 20 was on the flight. 01:22:32 20 being presented here.
01:20:08 21 So, to my mind, when I started to see on 01:2232 21 Q. It sounds like you quite passionately believe
01,20:10 22 these flight logs entries like one female, I viewed that 012235 22 that there was strong evidence that Mr. Epstein had
01:20:15 23 as a potential device for obscuring the fact that there 01:22:39 23 engaged in sexual misconduct; is that right?
01:20:17 24 was interstate trafficking of underage girls for 01:22:41 24 A. I think "strong" understates it.
01:20:19 25 purposes of sexual activity. Serious federal offenses. 01:2244 25 Q. In the course of that long answer, you didn't
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01:20:22 1 But then that evidence extended, you know, 01:22:48 1 mention Professor Dershowitz's name once.
01:2026 2 more broadly than that. The evidence also started to 01:22:51 2 A. I said flight logs. And let's talk about
01:20:28 3 show, again, if we talk just about flight logs, that 01:22:53 3 flight logs.
01,20,31 4 the -- that underage girls such as Virginia Roberts were 01:22:54 4 Q. Let me back up. You didn't answer his
01:20:34 5 being flown internationally from, for example, Teterboro 01:22:57 5 name -- mention his name once; is that -- is that your
01:20:39 6 in New York to -- to locations, just to pick one, you 01:23:00 6 recollection as well?
01:20:42 7 know, for example, in London, where again sexual abuse 01:23:00 7 A. That's correct. We were talking about a
0120:45 8 was occurring. 01:23:02 8 factual basis, and I'll be glad -- I told you that there
0120:47 9 And so you started to put together this 01:23:05 9 were other things if you want, factual basis for -- for
01:20:50 10 pattern of criminality that was started in this -- you 01:23:07 10 Mr. Dershowitz. I'll be glad to add that in. Let me -.-
01:20,54 11 know, I don't know what the right word is here. I don't 01:23:10 11 let's -- let me -- let me -- I would like to supplement
012056 12 want to -- I don't want to -- you know, you've heard 01:2311 12 my answer then if I could.
01:20:58 13 discussions of hyperbole and things like that, but we 01:23:12 13 Q. Do you want to look at a document?
01:21:01 14 have got this nest of -- of -- and I won't say snakes, 01:23:14 14 A. Yes.
0121:04 15 but we have this nest of criminals in Florida, but it -- 01:23:14 15 Q. Let me first -- have we exhausted your
01:21,07 16 it seems to be spreading to Epstein's mansion in New 0123:16 16 recollection without documents of all the evidence that
01:21:10 17 York; it seems to be spreading to Ghislaine Maxwell's 01:23:21 17 you would refer to to support the allegation that
01:21:14 18 flat in London, and -- and -- and it goes on. 01:23:23 18 Professor Dershowitz abused other minors?
01:21:17 19 So those are the kinds of things that would 0123:26 19 A. No.
01:21:19 20 have formed the -- the -- the basis, particularly when 01:23:26 20 MR. SCAROLA: And let me say that you have a
01:2125 21 you -- when you start to add in this fact: What the 0123:28 21 right to refer to whatever documents you choose
0121:28 22 Palm -- going back now to Florida with the Palm Beach 0123:31 22 to refer to, to be sure that you give a complete
01:21:31 23 Police Department. What the Palm Beach Police 0123:35 23 response to the question that has been asked, as
01:21:33 24 Department has -- had discovered was not a one-off kind 0123:38 24 long as you understand that whatever you refer to
01:21:35 25 of event, you know, on one particular day, one 01:23:40 25 is going to be available to the other side, and
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01:23:43 1 we would be happy to make it available to you. 0125,38 1 Mr. Epstein saying that she had been trafficked,
01:23:45 2 MR. SIMPSON: And -- and I'll give you an 0125:41 2 sexually trafficked, you know, not just abused by
01:23:47 3 opportunity to look at that -- 01:25:44 3 Mr. Epstein, but now being forcibly sent to, you know,
01:23:47 4 THE WITNESS: Sure -- 01,25:48 4 other people to abuse.
01:23:47 5 BY MR. SIMPSON: 012649 5 And in the categories of people that were
01:23.48 6 Q. -- but I'm entitled to ask first about your 0125:52 6 sexually abusing her were academicians, and I knew that
01:23:50 7 recollection. 01:25:58 7 Mr. Dershowitz fell within that category of -- of being
01:23:51 8 A. Okay. 0126:00 8 an academician. The -- that complaint also indicated
0123:51 9 Q. Based on your recollection -- 0126:05 9 that there might be flight logs that would show that
0123:51 10 A. Right. 01:26.08 10 Virginia Roberts had been sexually abused in these
0123:52 11 Q. -- I want to know all the evidence -- 0126:13 11 various locations. And that started to indicate to me
0123:52 12 A. Right. 01:2616 12 that there might be what the law refers to as a common
01:23:54 13 Q. -- you were relying on here. 01:26:19 13 scheme or plan. And that, just as Virginia Roberts was
01:23:55 14 A. So what -- what I'm going to do is, I'm going 01:2623 14 being trafficked to these powerful people in various
01:2367 15 to make a list here on my -- on my notepad of all the 01:2626 15 places, there might well be other girls.
01:23:59 16 things, and then I'm going to compare that with notes I 01:26:28 16 And so I have mentioned a flight log, and let
0124:01 17 have here. There may be a couple things that I don't 01:26:31 17 you -- you wanted to talk about Mr. Dershowitz. On .-
01:24:03 18 cover. 01:26:35 18 on December 30th, 2009, I was aware that there was a
01:24:03 19 Q. As long as your counsel is okay with that. 01:26:39 19 flight log showing Mr. Dershowitz flying with Tatiana,
0124-0420 A. Yeah. 01:26:44 20 who as far as I can tell was not a business person, was
01:24:05 21 Q. You understand you'll have to give that to 01:26:49 21 not providing financial advice or something else.
01:24:07 22 me? 01:26:51 22 I understood that Mr. Epstein was a
01:24:07 23 A. Yeah. I'll give you the notes -- 01:26:53 23 billionaire who was heavily involved in financial
01:24:07 24 Q. All right. 0126:57 24 issues. I knew that Tatiana was on a plane with
01:24:09 25 A. -- and then I will compare with what I've got 0127'01 25 Mr. Dershowitz, and then there was also, if I recall
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0124:11 1 there. So I mentioned the Palm Beach Police Department 0127:01 1 correctly, working from memory as -- as you were
01:24:14 2 report. 01:27:04 2 wondering about, there was a notation that
01:24:15 3 The next thing that I want to mention is the 01:27:06 3 Mr. Dershowitz was on a plane with one female.
012419 4 Jane Doe 102 complaint. In August of 2009, Bob 0127:08 4 And so I was -- when I looked at that, I'm
01:24:27 5 Josefsberg -- who is, from what I understood, a very 0127:11 5 seeing Mr. Dershowitz on a -- on a flight with a woman
01:24:32 6 well-regarded lawyer here in Florida; in fact, a lawyer 01:2715 6 who doesn't seem to be there for, frankly anything other
01:24:33 7 that was selected by the United States Government to 01:27:18 7 than sexual purposes or something along those lines with
01:24:36 8 represent a number of the -- of the girls that had been 01:27:21 8 Mr. Epstein, with Mr. Epstein, who is a sex trafficker,
01:24,40 9 sexually abused by Jeffrey Epstein. He was -- he was 01:27:25 9 and with one female which seemed to me to be a potential
01'24.43 10 part of the procedure that was including the
0127:30 10 entry for disguising international sex trafficking. So
01:24:45 11 nonprosecution agreement. 01:27:33 11 that was of concern.
01:24:46 12 In August of 2009, he filed a complaint on 01:27:34 12 I then began to look at, well, I wonder, how
01:24:48 13 behalf of Virginia Roberts. That complaint indicated 0127:36 13 would I find out if Mr. Dershowitz had been abusing
01:24:54 14 that Virginia Roberts had been sexually abused in 01:2739 14 other girls? Let's see. I knew that Virginia Roberts
01,24:58 15 Florida, in New York, and in -- in other places, as I 01:274215 had been forced to -- to -- to -- to do this sort of
01:25:02 16 recall. The thing that -- that I particularly recall 01:27:48 16 thing.
01,25:06 17 was that Mr. Josefsberg had said, Virginia Roberts was 01:27:56 17 MS. McCAWLEY: You're okay as long as
01:2$.12 18 abused by -- and he gave some categories of people. 01:2756 18 you're -- if you're revealing something that's in
01:2515 19 He mentioned, I think, business people. He 01:2759 19 an affidavit --
01:25:17 20 mentioned royalty, and he mentioned academicians. And 012759 20 THE WITNESS: That's right.
01:25:23 21 so to tie into your question, I knew that Professor 0127:59 21 MS. McCAWLEY: -- that she submitted, you're
01:2525 22 Dershowitz was an academician. And so what I was seeing 0127.59 22 fine.
0125:29 23 now was, that according to a very, very respected 01:28:00 23 THE WITNESS: Right. So -- so what...
01:2632 24 attorney here in Florida, he had found Virginia Roberts 0128'05 24 Let's see. What did I want, at this point --
01:25:34 25 to be credible, and had filed a lawsuit against 01:2605 25
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0128:05 1 BY MR. SIMPSON: 01:29:47 1 MS. McCAWLEY: Yeah.
01:28:09 2 Q. Do you want the question back? 01:29:49 2 MR. SCAROLA: -- who keeps jumping up and
01:28:10 3 A. No. I'm just trying to remember what I was 01:29:50 3 down and distracting everybody in the room?
01:28:12 4 thinking about with -- with regard to -- 0129:52 4 MS. McCAWLEY: And there was also profanity
0128:15 5 MR. SCAROLA: Do you need the response read 01'2054 5 used earlier. I mean, we just have to settle
01:28:17 6 back up to the point -- 01:29:55 6 down on this side, and take a deep breath, and
0128:18 7 THE WITNESS: Yeah, if you would do that, 0129:58 7 let him answer his questions.
01:2820 8 yeah. I just -- 0129:58 8 MR. SIMPSON: Look, I mean, the same thing
01:28:20 9 MR. SCAROLA: -- about privilege arose. 01:29:59 9 was happening on the other side.
01:28:20 10 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Let's just see what that 01:30:00 10 MR. SCAROLA: No, sir.
01:2820 11 one -- 01:3600 11 MS. McCAWLEY: There was no profanity on this
01:2821 12 MR. SCAROLA: Just read the last couple of 01;30:00 12 side of the table.
01:28:22 13 sentences back, or the last two sentences. 01:3060 13 MR. SCAROLA: No, no, no. There was never
01:28:31 14 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. Now I remember 01:3003 14 anyone who jumped to their feet at any time
0128:32 15 exactly what I was thinking. 01:3066 15 during the course of the last two days. The only
01:28:32 16 How would we go find out whether Mr. Epstein 01:30:08 16 person who keeps jumping up is Alan Dershowitz.
01:28:35 17 was lending women, or in this case, underage 01:30:13 17 Have him pass you a note quietly, if you would,
01:28:39 18 girls, to Mr. Dershowitz for sexual purposes? 01'3016 18 please.
01:2841 19 Well, the first thing I want to do was ask -- you 01:30:18 19 MR. SIMPSON: I will disagree with your
01:2845 20 know, I'd -- I'd go ask Jeffrey Epstein. 01:30:19 20 characterization, but let me say the
01728:47 21 And so what I discovered when I started to 01:3020 21 argumentation -
01:2848 22 look at the transcripts, there were a number of 01:30:21 22 MR. SCAROLA: Excuse me. Are you -- are you
01:28:52 23 transcripts where Mr. Epstein was asked about 01:30:22 23 making the representation --
01:28:55 24 Alan Dershowitz. And rather than say, well, no, 01:30:22 24 MR. SIMPSON: No, I'm not.
01:28,57 25 he wasn't involved in any of these illegal 01:3023 25 MR. SCAROLA: -- that somebody on this side
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012000 1 activities, Jeffrey Epstein took the Fifth as the 01:30:24 1 of the room jumped up?
01:29:03 2 phrase, you know, to be more precise. He 01:3025 2 MR. SIMPSON: No, no, no, I'm not.
01:29:05 3 exercised his right against compelled 01:3026 3 MR. SCAROLA: Okay. Thank you.
01:2966 4 self-incrimination and refused to answer the 01:3026 4 MR. SIMPSON: I'm not.
01:2909 5 question, which since these were civil cases, 01:30:27 5 MR. SCAROLA: And I appreciate that.
01:29:11 6 indicated to me, since he was being represented 01:30:27 6 MR. SIMPSON: And I --
01:29:14 7 by very experienced legal counsel, that there was 01:3029 7 MR. SCAROLA: And you do acknowledge that
01:2016 8 more than an insignificant risk of incriminating 01:30:30 8 Mr. Dershowitz has repeatedly been jumping up in
01:2919 9 himself if he answered that. 01:30:33 9 the middle of testimony, correct?
01:2920 10 And so Jeffrey Epstein now had taken the 01:30:36 10 MR. SIMPSON: That's -- he just got up and
01:29:23 11 Fifth. And one of the things that I was aware of 01:30:37 11 came over to me. That's the only time I'm aware
0129:26 12 having been involved in, you know, civil 01:30:39 12 of, because I'm -- I'm looking at the witness,
01:29:28 13 litigation and criminal litigation in other 01:3041 13 but he did just do that, and I will pass notes.
01:29:30 14 cases, was that once somebody refuses to answer a 01:30:44 14 We won't get up.
01:2032 15 question like, you know: Do you know 01:30,45 15 MR. SCAROLA: Okay. Well, I will tell you --
01:29:35 16 Mr. Dershowitz? And they take the Fifth on that, 01:30:45 16 MR. SIMPSON: I'm not going to take time from
01:29:38 17 that you're then entitled to draw what's called 01:3047 17 this.
0129:40 18 an adverse inference. You can -- you can infer 01:30:47 18 MR. SCAROLA: I will -- I will, for the
012042 19 that, well, if they answered that question, they 01:3049 19 record, as an officer of the court, represent
01:29:44 20 would have -- 01:30:51 20 that there have been multiple times during the
01:29,44 21 MR. SCAROLA: Excuse me. 01:30:54 21 course of Professor Cassell's deposition when
0129:44 22 MS. McCAWLEY: Yeah, I want to make an 01,30:58 22 Alan Dershowitz has jumped up in the middle of
01:29:44 23 objection here -- 01:3161 23 the testimony and excitedly whispered in your
01:29,44 24 MR. SCAROLA: Pardon me. Could you please 01:31:07 24 ear.
012047 25 try to control your client -- 01:31:07 25 You may not have realized it because you were
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01:31:08 1 focusing on the witness, but everybody on this 01:33:11 1 review, in which he took the Fifth when asked questions
01:31:10 2 side of the room has been distracted by his 01:33:13 2 about Dershowitz.
01:31:13 3 unprofessional conduct. 01:3114 3 So, at that point, in trying to figure out,
0111:16 4 MR. SIMPSON: I'm not going to argue with 01:33,17 4 you know, whether Mr. Dershowitz was involved in
01:31:18 5 you. And I -- 01:3120 5 sexually abusing, not only Virginia Roberts, but in
01:3318 6 MR. SCAROLA: Thank you. 01:33:24 6 other girls, then you go down to the next level, next
01:31:18 7 MR. SIMPSON: -- I disagree with that 01:3126 7 layer of the criminal conspiracy.
01:31:20 8 characterization. There is another attorney 01:33:28 8 Epstein is at the top, so you go to the next
01:31:22 9 sitting between us. We will pass notes. 01:3131 9 layer. These are, you know, basically the -- the women
0111,24 10 MR. SCAROLA: Thank you. 011313 10 who, from what I could gather, were -- were older than
01:31:25 11 MR. SIMPSON: And we -- and I believe, 01:33:36 11 the age that Epstein wanted to sexually abuse. I think
01,31:29 12 Ms. McCawley, were you instructing not to answer 01,3140 12 these were 22 and 23-year-old girls, so they had, you
01:31:30 13 or what was happening? What did you -- what were 01,33:44 13 know, essentially aged out of being his sexual abuse
01:3134 14 you raising? 01:33:47 14 victims, but they continued to -- what they would do is
01:31:34 15 MS. McCAWLEY: No. There was a lot of 01:33:50 15 collect girls for him under the age of 18, that I guess
01:31:35 16 yelling going on here, so I was trying to make 01:33:5316 was in his target range.
01:31:37 17 sure that everybody was quiet -- 01:3355 17 And so what -- so the next person I wanted to
18 MR. SIMPSON: All right. 01:3358 18 talk to, you know, and get information from was Sarah
19 MS. McCAWLEY: -- so that the client could 01:34:01 19 Kellen. Sarah Kellen is on a lot of these flight logs
20 answer. 01:3404 20 with, you know, these girls that -- or women and with
21 MR. SIMPSON: All right. Let me back up. 01:34:07 21 Epstein and others, and so I wanted to talk to Sarah
22 BY MR. SIMPSON: 0114:07 22 Kellen.
01:3141 23 Q. Professor Cassell, I think you were in the 011411 23 But what I discovered there was that, when
01:31:41 24 middle of an answer? 01:3415 24 Sarah Kellen was asked about Alan Dershowitz, she took
01:31:42 25 A. i was. Yes, if I could conclude -- 01:3418 25 the Fifth, and there was -- she wasn't the only one.
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01:31:43 1 MR. SIMPSON: All right. Could the court 01:34:21 1 There was Miss Mucinska, who also took the Fifth when
01:31:44 2 reporter read me the last two lines of your 01:34:25 2 asked questions about Alan Dershowitz.
01:31:46 3 answer? 01:34:27 3 And then there was Marcin -- Miss Marcinkova
01:3146 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. 01:34:30 4 who also took the Fifth. So what we -- what I had at
01,31:46 5 (Thereupon, a portion of the record was read 011433 5 this point was Jeffrey Epstein's international sex
01:31:46 6 by the reporter.) 01:34:35 6 trafficking organization. I had the next echelon, and
01:31:46 7 BY MR. SIMPSON: 0134:38 7 both the top kingpin of the sex trafficking
01:32:26 8 Q. Okay. Can you pick up then? 01,34:42 8 organization, and the next echelon had taken the Fifth,
01.32:27 9 A. Sure. I'll pick up -- pick up the -- 01:34:46 9 had refused to answer questions about Alan Dershowitz.
01:32:27 10 Q. Okay. 011449 10 And so, at -- at that point, I was drawing an
01:32:31 11 A. So I was beginning to draw an adverse 01:3451 11 adverse inference, not just from one person, but from
01:32,31 12 inference when 3effrey Epstein, who is at the heart of 01:34:54 12 four persons, and that adverse inference was being
01:32:34 13 the sexual abuse of, not only Virginia Roberts, but 01:34157 13 strengthened by the surrounding circumstances, some of
01:32:39 14 dozens and dozens and dozens of -- of girls literally 01:35.00 14 which we have already talked about.
01:32,40 15 scattered across the globe, takes the Fifth, refuses to 01:35:00 15 One of the things that -- that really
01:32:43 16 answer the question, off the top of my head, I can't 01:35:02 16 bolstered the adverse inference that I was drawing in
01:32:46 17 recall exactly, but something along lines of: Do you 0135.55 17 this case was that I've mentioned those three girls,
011148 18 know Alan Dershowitz? And he says, I take the Fifth. 01:35:09 18 Kellen, Mucinska, and Marcinkova. They were all covered
01:3260 19 That sort of, frankly, startled me, that -- that this 0115:12 19 by a nonprosecution agreement. And the nonprosecution
01,32:55 20 international sex trafficker was taking the Fifth now 01:35:15 20 agreement was highly unusual.
01:32:57 21 when asked about Mr. Dershowitz. 01:35:17 21 1 -- I had been a federal prosecutor for
01:3101 22 And so I was stymied in trying to get 01:35:18 22 about four years, I had been a federal judge for about
01,33:04 23 information from Mr. Epstein at that point. I think 01,35:21 23 five-and-a-half years, so I had seen a lot of -- of, you
011107 24 there were two depositions, if I recall correctly off 0115:23 24 know, nonprosecution types of arrangements. And one of
01:33:09 25 the top of my head, that -- that I had an opportunity to 011626 25 the things that was very unusual in this one is, it has
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01:35:29 1 what I'll refer to as the blank-check immunity 01:37:40 1 that are said there, but Alessi puts Mr. Dershowitz at
01:35:33 2 provision. 01,37:46 2 the nest of this international sex trafficking
01:35:34 3 There was a provision in the nonprosecution 01:37:47 3 organization. Let's see. I think he said four or five
01:3636 4 agreement that said, this agreement will prevent federal 01:37:51 4 times a year, two or three -- you know, two or three
01:35:40 5 prosecution for international and interstate sex 01:37:55 5 days when he goes there.
01:35:43 6 trafficking, not only of Jeffrey Epstein, and not only 01:3766 6 And let's be clear, I know Mr. Dershowitz had
01:35:46 7 of the four women who were identified, but -- and this 01:37:58 7 said at some points like, I'm an attorney, and that's my
01:35:49 8 is a direct quote: Any other potential co-conspirator, 01:38:00 8 client and so forth. And Alessi said, no, but this was
01:35:53 9 close quote. 01:38:03 9 not in a -- in a lawyer/client capacity; this is in a
01:35:55 10 And so that was unusual because what it -- 01:38:09 10 friend capacity.
01:35:57 11 what it seemed to be doing was that somehow this 01:38:10 11 And so now we have Alessi putting him there
01:3568 12 agreement was quite out of the normal and had been 01,38:1212 at the same time when young girls were there. And one
01:36:00 13 designed to extend immunity to other people that might 01:38:15 13 of the -- the -- the things that I picked up, so is
01:36:04 14 have been associated with Epstein. 01:38:17 14 Alessi -- you know, is he able to figure out who these
01:36:05 15 And I knew that that category included the 01:38:19 15 girls are?
01:36:09 16 people that were involved in negotiating this highly 01:38:20 16 A photograph of Virginia Roberts is shown to
01:36:11 17 unusual provision included Mr. Dershowitz, who had been 012822 17 Juan Alessi in the deposition, and he I.D.s the
01:36:14 18 heavily involved, not only in the drafting of the 01,38:26 18 photograph as, you know, V.R., so he -- he had, you
01:36:18 19 agreement, but had also been involved remarkably in 01:38:30 19 know, put two and two together.
01:3622 20 attacking the credibility of these girls and saying 0128:30 20 So now I've got V.R. coming to the house at a
01:36:25 21 things like, you know, it was -- Epstein wasn't 0128:34 21 time when Mr. Dershowitz is also in the house, and
01:36:28 22 targeting minor girls, which just struck -- you know, I 01:38:37 22 apparently spending, you know, two to three nights there
01:36:33 23 was -- I don't want to use a technical term, 01:38:40 23 and doing this four or five times a year.
01:36:35 24 gob-smocked, that a defense attorney with an obligation 01:38:45 24 Now, Alessi wasn't the only one. There was
01:36:37 25 to tell the truth was making a factual representation
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01:36:42 1 that Jeffrey Epstein was not targeting minor girls, when 01:3863 1 after the time period of Virginia Roberts, but it's part
01:36:44 2 the Palm Beach Police Department had collected, you 01:38:56 2 of the common scheme or plan that we've been discussing
01:3647 3 know, 23 of them that had all given essentially 01:38:59 3 here.
01:36:50 4 interlocking stories about how they had all gone over to 01:3659 4 And so in 2005, Alfredo Rodriguez says, yeah,
01:36:54 5 this house, you know, the mansion, to give a massage and 01:39:02 5 again, Mr. Dershowitz is there at a time when these
01:36:57 6 when they had gotten there, they had been sexually 01:39:05 6 massages are going on. When you start to look at Alessi
01:36:58 7 abused. 01:39:09 7 and Rodriguez's statements in context where they're --
01:3658 8 So the kingpin wouldn't talk. The next 01:39:14 8 they're saying he's there at the same time the massages
01:37:01 9 echelon of the trafficking organization wouldn't talk. 01:3616 9 are occurring, and with the West Palm Beach Police
01:37:03 10 So the next step was to say, okay, let's see if we can 01:39:19 10 Department reports showing that massages are of a sexual
01:37:06 11 find somebody, you know, lower level in there, you know, 01:39:22 11 nature, again, it started to put two and two together.
01:37:08 12 a household employee or something like that; maybe they 01:3626 12 One of the things that was particularly
01:37:10 13 will have some information about, you know, what this 01:39:30 13 important about Rodriguez's situation was that Rodriguez
0127:12 14 criminal organization is doing. 01:39:34 14 had an access to what's been called the little black
01:37:14 15 Now, let's -- let's understand, you know, 01:3938 15 book, or I think he referred to it as the holy grail.
01:37:16 16 given the pervasiveness of the -- of the criminal 01:39:40 16 This was Jeffrey Epstein's, you know, telephone book
01:37:19 17 activity, I -- I wasn't convinced that they were going 01:39:42 17 where he had telephone numbers in it.
01:3721 18 to be able to get in there and start saying exactly what 01:39:45 18 And so Rodriguez had that and, you know, I
01:3724 19 was going on because they might well be exposing 01:3648 19 guess thought that this would be worth a lot of money
01:37:26 20 themselves to criminal -- you know, criminal 01:3650 20 because it would -- you know, it would identify all of
01:3729 21 culpability. 01:3652 21 the people that have been sexually abused by -- by
01:37:30 22 But I -- I was able to read a sworn 01:3654 22 Jeffrey Epstein. And so he tried to sell it. The FBI
01:37:32 23 deposition from Juan Alessi, and Juan Alessi -- I 01:3657 23 busted him for that.
01:37:37 24 think -- I don't know. Maybe just to speed things up 01:39:58 24 And when the FBI busted him, now he's got
01:37:38 25 today, I won't go through all the things that are -- 01:40:00 25 this book. And so the book went to Alessi, and
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01:40:05 1 according to a -- to a later FBI report, Alessi 01A2:32 1 a lot of money. I mean, Epstein was identified as a
01A0'.07 2 identified information that was pertinent to the FBI's 01:42:32 2 billionaire in this article, billionaire with -- with a
01A0:07 3 investigation. 01:4Z38 3 B, so the record is clear.
01:40:11 4 And so when I look at the little black book 01A2:39 4 But he said, look, if Epstein lost all his
01:40:14 5 that I have seen copies of, there are a handful of names 01:42:43 5 money -- I'm paraphrasing here -- I would be, you know,
01:40:17 6 in that black book that have been circled, apparently by 01A2.44 6 happy to walk down, you know, the Coney Island Boardwalk
01:40:22 7 Mr. Rodriguez, and one of the names that's -- that has 01:42:47 7 with him and discuss things with him, as -- you know,
01:40:25 8 been circled is Alan Dershowitz. And so that, to me, 01:42:49 8 even if he didn't have any money.
01:40:30 9 was suggesting that Mr. Rodriguez had identified, you 01A2:50 9 So now I'm seeing Dershowitz is a very close
01:40:35 10 know, Alan Dershowitz as somebody who had information 01:42:54 10 personal friend of Jeffrey Epstein. And then I started
01:40:38 11 about this -- this international sex trafficking ring. 01:42:58 11 to look at flight logs. There were -- there were some
01:40:40 12 But just as a side note, but an important 01:43:01 12 very interesting things that I noticed on the flight
01:40:42 13 note, when the -- the thing that was circled on the Alan 01:43:04 13 logs.
01:40:46 14 Dershowitz page was not a single phone number 01:43:04 14 One of the things I noticed was when I began
01A0:49 15 indicating, you know, somebody had bumped -- you know, 01:43:07 15 to, you know, get into this, that, you know, I was
01,40-51 16 Epstein had bumped into at one point. I believe there 01:43:13 16 wondering, well, what -- well, how do these flight logs
01:40:56 17 were 10 or 11 phone numbers that were associated with 01'4314 17 come into the possession of, you know, law enforcement
01:40:57 18 Mr. Dershowitz that had all been circled and an e-mail 01:43:16 18 agencies? And the answer turned out to be that they had
01:41:00 19 address as well. 01:4320 19 been provided by Epstein's defense attorney and -- and,
01:41:02 20 So that started to corroborate my sense that 01:4323 20 you know, coincidentally, I suppose, or in my mind,
01'41:05 21 Mr. Dershowitz was, indeed, a very close friend of
01:43:27 21 suspiciously, they were not provided by just any defense
01:41:10 22 Jeffrey Epstein. Now, I had then continued to do -- 01A3:30 22 attorney on this rather large defense team. They were
01:41:14 23 there's been reference today to, you know, using Google 01:43:33 23 provided by one attorney according to Detective Recarey.
01:41:16 24 to do research and so forth. So I Googled Jeffrey 01:43:36 24 Detective Recarey testified under oath that the flight
01:41:20 25 Epstein and one of the things that pops up rather 01:43:39 25 logs were provided to him by Alan Dershowitz.
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01A1:22 1 rapidly is an article in Vanity Fair. 01:43:41 1 So one of the things that was -- was
01:41:25 2 And what you see in that article is, you 01:43:43 2 interesting is, Dershowitz has had access to these
01:41:28 3 know, discussion about Mr. Epstein, but when you're 01:43:45 3 flight logs, and now I'm beginning to wonder, well, has
01:41:33 4 trying to do a profile of someone, you try to figure out 01:43:48 4 there been an opportunity to sanitize those flight logs
01:41:34 5 who that person's closest friends are. 01:43:50 5 or remove any incriminating information?
01:41:35 6 And so the Vanity Fair author had gone to 01:43:52 6 And -- and one of the things that was
01:41:38 7 Alan Dershowitz, you know, our -- Mr. Dershowitz here, 01,43:54 7 interesting about the flight logs that were produced --
01:41:42 8 and had asked him, hey, what do you know about Jeffrey 01:4356 8 I believe just so the record is clear, that was Exhibit
01:41:45 9 Epstein? 01:44:02 9 1 that -- if we could -- if I could refer -- I need to
01:41:46 10 And, again, off the top of my head, you want 01A4104 10 refresh my recollection as to -- well, I don't -- you
01:41:47 11 to know what I can remember right now. What I can 01:44:07 11 may not want me to look at documents.
01:41A9 12 remember right now is that in the Vanity Fair article, 01'44:08 12 It was either Exhibit 1 or 2 this morning
0141:53 13 the -- in the Vanity Fair article, Mr. Dershowitz said, 01:44:11 13 during Dershowitz's deposition which was covering a time
01:41:59 14 I've written 20-some odd books; there's only one person 01:44:15 14 period of January to, I believe, September 2005. These
01A2:03 15 outside my immediate family with whom I share drafts, 01:44:20 15 were flight logs that were produced by Mr. Dershowitz to
0142:06 16 and that's Jeffrey Epstein. 01:44:23 16 the Palm Beach Police Department.
01.42:08 17 So I took that as indicating a -- a very 01:44:25 17 And you wonder why did they stop in
01:42:10 18 close personal association that -- you know, among the 01A4.27 18 September -- you know, why stop in September 2005?
01:42'13 19 people that -- that obviously he's sharing this -- these
01:44'31 19 What's the significance of that? Well, later on,
01A2:15 20 kinds of things that he wants evaluated before he shares 01:44'35 20 additional flight logs were obtained, and sure enough,
01:42:18 21 them with the broader world, there's his immediate 01:44:39 21 who shows up on an October 2005 flight log with Jeffrey
01:42:21 22 family and then there's -- there's Jeffrey Epstein. 01:44:45 22 Epstein? Mr. Dershowitz.
01:4223 23 There was also another similar quote in the 01:44:46 23 So that led to a suspicion that
01:42:24 24 article that indicated that -- that Mr. Dershowitz said 01:44:49 24 Mr. Dershowitz had provided to the Palm Beach Police
01:42:29 25 that he wasn't interested in Epstein just because he had 01:44:52 25 Department flight logs that, the time period of which
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01:44:54 1 for the production had been carefully crafted to keep 01:46:33 1 THE WITNESS: Right. No, I mean, I want to
01:44:57 2 him out of it; in other words, to not produce the 01:48:36 2 make -- I want to make clear that there was a lot
01:4459 3 October 2005 version. 01:46:37 3 of information that I was relying on in filing
01:45:03 4 The other thing I -- I began to discover as I 01,46:40 4 this pleading, and -- and, of course, the later
01:45:05 5 started going through some flight logs, Dave Rogers, who 01:46.42 5 pleading. So we are on the subject of flight
01:45:08 6 is one of I think about three pilots that -- that 01:46:44 6 logs.
01:4610 7 Epstein regularly relied on to fly his -- you know, he 01:46:44 7 Flight logs showed that the flight logs
01:45:13 8 had very fancy -- to use the technical term -- jets. 01:4646 8 Mr. Dershowitz had produced to Detective Recarey
01:45:18 9 There were about -- there were about three pilots there. 01:46:49 9 were incomplete and inaccurate. And so that led
01:45:20 10 One of them had some flight logs and that -- 01:46:52 10 to concern on my part that Mr. Dershowitz had had
01:45:24 11 that was Pilot Dave Rogers, if I'm recalling his name 01:46:55 11 an opportunity to sanitize the flight logs,
01:45:26 12 correctly. And so later on in the litigation, the sex 01:46:57 12 had -- had -- had provided incomplete production,
01:45:30 13 abuse litigation against Epstein, flight logs were 01:47:01 13 you know, obviously, very important production
01:45:34 14 obtained from Dave Rogers, and it was possible to -- to 01:47:02 14 that the Palm Beach Police Department was looking
01'4637 15 compare -- I'm sorry. I don't mean to -- I want to make 01:47:05 15 at.
01:4640 16 sure I get -- you know, the question is: How much can -I
01:47:06 16 Then we got some additional flight logs from
01:45:42 17 remember and I'm trying to make sure I get -- get it all 01:47:09 17 Dave Rogers. And what those flight logs
01:45:44 18 in. 01:47:11 18 showed -- first off, let's talk again about
01:45:45 19 And so the flight logs were produced from 01:47:14 19 the -- the production of those flight logs.
01:45:48 20 Dave Rogers. And so Dave Rogers produced some flight 01:4717 20 My recollection is that Dave Rogers's flight
01:45:51 21 logs, and some of the flights that he produced logs for 01:4721 21 logs were provided by Bruce Reinhart who was a
01:45:56 22 coincided with the logs that Mr. Dershowitz had provided 01:47:24 22 former Assistant U.S. Attorney who had been
01:45:59 23 to the Palm Beach Police Department, and there were 0147-26 23 inside the Southern District of Florida Office at
01:46:01 24 inconsistencies. And so that, again, aroused my 01:47:29 24 a time when the Epstein case was the subject of
01:46:05 25 suspicion that maybe Mr. Dershowitz when he had -- 01:47:32 25 regular discussion in that office.
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01:46:08 1 MR. SCOTT: I just got a call from a lawyer 01:47:33 1 And then he had gone to work for some kind of
01:4609 2 on the screen. His -- his phone is not working, 01:47:36 2 a -- a law firm or private operation that was
01:4610 3 Epstein's lawyer, Darren Indyke. 01:47:39 3 located adjacent to Mr. Epstein's business. And
01:46:10 4 MR. SIMPSON: Why don't -- 01:47:44 4 so, now, Reinhart, who appeared to be being paid
01:46:15 5 MR. SCAROLA: Do you want to take a break for 01:47:48 5 by Mr. Epstein, and certainly was adjacent to
01:46:17 6 a second? 01:47:49 6 Mr. Epstein's business office, was producing
01:46:17 7 MR. SIMPSON: Well, why don't -- well, why 01:4761 7 these flight logs.
01:46:17 8 don't we let him finish his answer? 01:47:52 8 So that, again, aroused suspicion that the
01:46:18 9 MR. SCAROLA: Let him finish the answer. 01:47:54 9 flight logs that were being produced would have
01:46:20 10 MR. SCOTT: Yeah, lets do that. You're 01:4757 10 been sanitized or inaccurate.
01'46:20 11 right. 01:47:58 11 But even -- I mean, you know, I think the
01:46:21 12 MR. SCAROLA: Although it may take a while. 0148:00 12 problem with -- you know, you cant sanitize
01:4621 13 THE WITNESS: It -- its, I mean, the 01:4602 13 everything. That would be too suspicious. And
01.46:21 14 question -- 01:48:04 14 so what -- what was -- was -- what was evident on
01:46:21 15 MR. SCAROLA: Yeah. But lets -- 01:4607 15 these flight logs was, for example, approximately
01,4625 16 MR. SCOTT: I don't care. 01:48:11 16 ten flights by Mr. Dershowitz with Tatiana has --
01:46:25 17 MR. SCAROLA: Okay. Lets -- let's go ahead 01:48:18 17 has been discussed; with Maxwell; with Jeffrey
01:46:27 18 and finish. 01.48:21 18 Epstein. One of them had one female, which,
01:46:27 19 MR. SCOTT: Let's go ahead and finish the 01:48:25 19 again, in the context that I was looking at,
01:46:29 20 answer. We heard this much. 01.48:27 20 seemed to be a potential code word for
01:46:29 21 MR. SCAROLA: Good. Thank you. 01:48:28 21 underage -- underage girl.
01.46:29 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. So there -- 01:48:32 22 And so those flight logs showed, you know,
01:46:31 23 MR. SCOTT: I don't want to break him on a 01:48:35 23 again, close association and travel with --
01.46:32 24 roll. 01,48.40 24 with -- with -- with Mr. Dershowitz, and
01:4633 25 MR. SCAROLA: Thanks. 0148:47 25 Mr. Epstein.
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01:48:51 1 Another thing that I had, and I will not 01:50:19 1 going into any confidential communications or
01748:53 2 reveal any privileged communications here or any 01:50:22 2 trying to waive in any way, I knew that David
01:48:56 3 confidential information, but on December 30th, I 01:5024 3 Boies had agreed to represent Virginia Roberts,
01:48:59 4 was aware that one of the preeminent lawyers in 01:5027 4 which gave me additional confidence in the fact
01:49:02 5 the United States, David Boies, had agreed to 01:50:30 5 that I was also representing this young woman in
01,49:07 6 represent Virginia Roberts. And given the vast 01:50:34 6 her effort to bring sex traffickers to justice,
01:49:11 7 amount of business that -- that, you know, tries 01:50:37 7 and those who had sexually abused her to justice.
01:49:13 8 to get in the door -- 01:5641 8 And so those are things that come to mind
01A9:15 9 MR. SIMPSON: Could I interrupt? I mean, I 01:50:46 9 immediately as -- let me just take a second and
01:49:17 10 think we are going towards a waiver here. 01:50:50 10 see if there were other things regarding
01:49:19 11 MS. McCAWLEY: Yeah. No, no, no, I do not -- 01:50:56 11 Dershowitz that -- that come immediately --
01:4920 12 MR. SIMPSON: We can't have testimony 01:51:01 12 immediately to mind.
01A9:21 13 about -- 01:51:03 13 Oh, one of the things was in the Jane Doe 102
01A921 14 MS. McCAWLEY: Yeah. 01:51:09 14 complaint, which alleged academicians that had --
01:49:22 15 MR. SIMPSON: -- this is one of the most 01:51:14 15 that had abused -- sexually abused Jane Doe 3,
01A922 16 respected people in the country, or lawyers in 01:51:19 16 there -- there were -- so that raises a question,
01:49:26 17 the country, and then you won't answer the 01:51:24 17 obviously, of who were the academicians that Bob
01:4926 18 questions -- 01,51:30 18 Josefsberg had identified?
01:49:26 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 01:51:31 19 I can't recall, actually. Let me -- the
014928 20 MR. SIMPSON: -- you said not to answer. 01:51:33 20 record should be clear, I can't recall
01:49:28 21 MS. McCAWLEY: Oh. Well, describing David 01:51:34 21 immediately whether it was singular or plural.
01:49:30 22 Boies in general -- 01:5116 22 It may have been plural, but if it's singular, I
0149:30 23 MR. SIMPSON: I agree with the description. 01:51:36 23 don't want to suggest that there were other
01A9:31 24 MS. McCAWLEY: -- doesn't constitute a 01:51:40 24 academicians, but at least one academician had
01:4922 25 waiver. 01:5142 25 sexually abused Jane Doe 3, according to the
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01:49:32 1 MR. SIMPSON: He's a distinguished lawyer. 01:51:45 1 complaint that had been filed by Bob Josefsberg.
01:49:32 2 MR. SCAROLA: And I don't think we are 01:5148 2 There were two things that were of interest
01:49:33 3 getting beyond anything that is a matter of 01:51:49 3 to that: One was that Mr. Epstein, the man that
01:49:37 4 public record. 01:51:51 4 I wasn't able to get information from because he
01:49:37 5 MR. SIMPSON: I just -- I -- 0,51:54 5 was invoking the Fifth, had refused or declined
01:49:38 6 MS. McCAWLEY: But I appreciate you -- 01:51:57 6 to file an answer to that complaint.
01:49:38 7 MR. SIMPSON: Be aware of waiver. 01:52:00 7 Rather than deny the allegations, he had,
01:49:39 8 MS. McCAWLEY: -- letting me know that. 01:5203 8 ultimately, it's my understanding -- I don't have
01:4940 9 THE WITNESS: All right. I will be -- I will 01:52,05 9 inside information and I'm not trying to waive
01:49:41 10 not waive anything, and if I start to do that, I 01:52:07 10 any information, but my understanding is that
01:49'43 11 would certainly request the opportunity to -- to 01:52:09 11 rather than answer the complaint, he settled the
0149:4512 retract what I'm doing, but I was aware -- since 01:52:11 12 case through the payment of some kind of
01:49:48 13 the issue is, well, what's in the public record, 01:52:13 13 compensation that lane Doe 102 found desirable
01:49'50 14 I was aware that, you know, probably the most 01:52:17 14 for dropping her claim.
01:49:52 15 significant United States Supreme Court case 01:5219 15 The other thing that I found interesting is
01:49:55 16 argued in the last 20 years was Bush versus Gore, 01:52:21 16 that 3osefsberg's partner, I believe it is,
01:49:58 17 which was a case that essentially determined who 01:52:25 17 Miss Ezell, had been to some of the depositions
01:50:01 18 was going to be President of the most powerful 01:5229 18 of, for example, I believe Juan Alessi and
01:50:03 19 country in the world. 01:52:33 19 Alfredo Rodriguez. And I believe at least one of
01:50:04 20 There were two attorneys who argued that case 01:5235 20 those, and perhaps both of those. And she had
01:5065 21 in front of the United States Supreme Court, and 01:52:36 21 asked questions about Alan Dershowitz in those
01:50:07 22 arguing for the Democratic Presidential 01:52:39 22 depositions, but had not asked questions about
0150:10 23 Candidate, Al Gore, was David Boies. 01:52:42 23 other academics in those depositions.
01:50:12 24 He had put his credibility on the line in 01524524 So that led me to conclude that Bob
01:5016 25 arguing the Bush versus Gore case, and without 01:52:51 25 Josefsberg and his outstanding law firm had
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01:52:51 1 identified Alan Dershowitz as someone who had 02:0923 1 let me clear all of that misunderstanding up.
01:52:54 2 information relevant -- and let's be clear, that 02:0925 2 You know, that's -- frankly, if I had gotten
01,52:56 3 this is not a lawsuit about some contract dispute 020928 3 something like that, that's what I would have
01:52:58 4 or something -- that he was someone who had 02.09:29 4 said.
01:53:00 5 information relevant to the sexual abuse of 02:0030 5 The answer that came back was -- from
01:53102 6 underage girls and, indeed, they were asking 02:09:32 6 Mr. Dershowitz was something along the lines of,
01:53:05 7 questions about what information -- what 020134 7 if I remember correctly, well, tell me what
01:53:07 8 information he might have. 02:0136 8 you -- you -- tell me what you want to know and
01:53:09 9 Another -- I know, I remember now, there's a 02:09:38 9 I'll decide whether to cooperate, was I think
01:53:11 10 whole other line of things that -- that I had in 02:0041 10 the phrase that was used. And -- and so there
01:53:13 11 mind at the time, and I think since you want to 020043 11 was an attempt, you know, a 2009 attempt, a 2011
010316 12 test my memory -- I'm not -- let me be clear. 02:09:46 12 attempt to get information from Mr. Dershowitz.
01:5319 13 I'm not claiming I have a superb memory. I have 02:09:49 13 Then there was another subpoena without
01:53:21 14 an average memory, but this is a subject that's 02:09:52 14 deposition for -- for documents. You know, we
01:5322 15 very important to me, and so I've worked, you 0209:54 15 have heard a lot about records in this case that
01:53:26 16 know, very hard to get all the information. 02:09:57 16 could prove innocence. There was a records
01:53:31 17 I would like to take a break. 02:09:58 17 request to Mr. Dershowitz in 2013. And, again,
01:53:32 18 MR. SCAROLA: Sure. Take a break. 021001 18 my understanding was that there was no -- you
01:53:33 19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the video 02:1003 19 know, no documents were provided on that.
01:53:36 20 record, 3:27 p.m. 021007 20 And so those -- I had that information.
02:07:43 21 (Thereupon, a recess was taken.) 02:10:11 21 Another bit of information that I had was that in
02:07:4322 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the video 021014 22 2011, I believe in early April -- this is not
0208:03 23 record, 3:41 p.m. 02:1019 23 attorney/client privileged information from
020006 24 THE WITNESS: I want to continue my answer. 0210:21 24 Virginia Roberts. This is a telephone call that
02:08:08 25 I'm sorry. I got emotional there for a moment. 02:1023 25 she placed from Australia where she had been
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02:08:12 1 I want to do a good job for Virginia Roberts 02:1027 1 essentially forced into hiding by Jeffrey
02:08:12 2 on -- on representing all the -- the evidence 02:1028 2 Epstein. She managed to escape and was hiding
02:08:14 3 that is available to support her. 02:10:31 3 out in -- in Australia, and that she would --
02:08:16 4 The next thing that I was thinking of was, 02:10:35 4 that somehow, you know, Mr. Scarola and
02:08:19 5 all right, then the question is: Well, what does 02:1038 5 Mr. Edwards were able to reach her and there was
02.08:23 6 Mr. Dershowitz have to say about all this? So I 02:10:41 6 a telephone call that was made.
02:08:27 7 started to look at the information on that as 0210:43 7 And in that telephone call she identified
02:08:28 8 well. 02:10:46 8 Alan Dershowitz as someone who would have
02:08:29 9 In 2009, there had been a deposition request 0210;48 9 relevant information about Jeffrey Epstein and
02:08:34 10 sent to Mr. Dershowitz, and I -- I saw a document 0210:50 10 the sexual abuse of underage girls.
02:08:37 11 showing that that had actually been served on -- 02:10:53 11 And so I had that information as well. So
02:08:40 12 on him, and, you know, to the extent that what I 0211,01 12 that, as I understand, the question was: What
02:08:44 13 saw was a -- I think a receipt from the process 02:11:01 13 could I recall off the top of my head with regard
02:08:48 14 server, or something along those lines, so I saw 02:11:05 14 to the factual basis for information connecting
02:08:51 15 attempt to contact him in -- in 2009. 021107 15 Mr. Dershowitz with the sexual abuse of minor
02:08:53 16 And then I saw an additional attempt to 02:11:12 16 girls, plural, and that, sitting here at this
02:08:55 17 contact him in 2011. Mr. Scarola had sent him a 0211.15 17 moment, is the best that I can recall for the
02:09:01 18 note and there was, you know, some back and 021118 18 information along those lines.
02,09:03 19 forth. The -- the one note that -- that jumped 021118 19 BY MR. SIMPSON:
02:0906 20 out to me was one in which Mr. Scarola had 02:1121 20 Q. Was that answer --
02:09:09 21 written to Mr. Dershowitz, I think the phrase 02:11:21 21 MR. SCAROLA: Excuse me. Before -- before
020912 22 was: Multiple witnesses have placed you in the 02,1123 22 you go on to another subject, Professor Cassell
02:09:14 23 presence of Jeffrey Epstein and underage girls; I 0211:26 23 is entitled to refresh his recollection to give
02:09:18 24 would like to depose you about those subjects. 02.11:29 24 you a complete response. So why don't you go
020921 25 And the answer that came back was not, well,
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0211:34 1 everything. 02:12:45 1 document produced by the witness was marked for
021114 2 MR. SIMPSON: I'm -- I think I get to ask the 011145 2 identification.)
0211:35 3 questions, but I was going to ask the same 02:1110 3 THE WITNESS: All right. So let me -- if I
02:11:38 4 question. 02:13:11 4 could look at this to see if it -- the top
0111:39 5 MR. SCAROLA: Wonderful. We are on the same 021113 5 portion of it to see if it refreshes my
021 1A0 6 page. 02:13:13 6 recollection about --
02:11:40 7 BY MR. SIMPSON: 021113 7 BY MR. SIMPSON:
02:11:41 8 Q. Mr. Cassell, you -- you mentioned that you 02.13:16 8 Q. Could I just see it for one second?
02:11:43 9 had something that you had prepared -- 02:13:18 9 A. Sure. Absolutely.
02:11:44 10 A. Yes. 02:13:21 10 Q. All right. Yeah. Let me just clarify one
0211:44 11 Q. -- that would summarize -- 02:13:27 11 point before you do that.
02:11:46 12 A. Right. 02:1127 12 A. Yes, sir.
02:11:46 13 Q. -- your knowledge. 02:1327 13 Q. In your answer, were you referring to the
0211:48 14 A. Right. 02:1128 14 evidence you could recall or the information you could
02:11:48 15 Q. And now that you have exhausted your 02:13:30 15 recall that supported your allegations as to both
32:11,51 16 recollection, could you produce that and let's just mark 02:13:34 16 Virginia Roberts and other minors, or were you treating
3211:54 17 it -- 0213:36 17 those separately?
02:11:54 18 A. Yeah, sure. 02:13:37 18 A. No, I was not treating those separately. I
0211:55 19 Q. -- as an exhibit? 02113919 was -- for me, there's a common -- what -- what the law
02:11:56 20 MR. SIMPSON: We are up to Exhibit 3, I 02:114220 refers to as a common scheme or plan in a --
0211:59 21 believe. Cassell 3. 02:13:42 21 Q. Okay.
02:12:01 22 THE WITNESS: Right. Now, there -- there are 0213:44 22 A. -- a criminal conspiracy for international
0212:01 23 two parts to this -- 02:13:46 23 trafficking that involved not just a single girl, but
02:12:02 24 MR. SIMPSON: Can we mark it first and 02:13:49 24 multiple girls. So the answer was -- was with respect
021102 25 then -- 02:1352 25 to -- to multiple girls.
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02:12:04 1 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I just want the record 02:1153 1 Q. Okay. So I may have some questions to
02:1106 2 to be clear, that I'm only looking -- there's -- 02:13:56 2 distinguish further between those two --
02:12:07 3 there's a pre-December 30th section and a 02:13:57 3 A. Yes.
02:12:10 4 post-December 30th section, so the top part is 02:1158 4 Q. -- but is it fair to say that -- and I
0/12:13 5 the -- is what I was working off of. 02,14:02 5 realize you're going to refresh your recollection, but
02:1113 6 BY MR. SIMPSON: 02:14:05 6 that you had exhausted your recollection of the basis
02:12:15 7 Q. Okay. 021407 7 for the allegation in this Exhibit 2, the motion to join
0/1115 8 A. Now, underneath this is -- you know, if you 02:14:14 8 as to both Miss Roberts and other minors?
0112:18 9 have questions about what happened after December 30th. 011417 9 A. Yes.
02:12:19 10 Q. So you're -- you're prepared to produce the 02,1417 10 Q. Okay. So then, now, take a look at that and
02:12:22 11 entire document, but you're clarifying? I don't -- I 02:14:20 11 tell me if there's anything there that refreshes your
02:12:24 12 don't want to ask you -- if you're going to use it in 02:14:25 12 recollection as to something that you have not yet told
02:12:26 13 your testimony, then we will mark the whole thing. 02:14:28 13 me about.
021127 14 MR. SCAROLA: Mark the whole thing. You can 02:14:29 14 A. So this refreshes my recollection. Sarah
02:12:30 15 use it. 02:14:46 15 Kellen. I think I referred to her as Miss Kellen.
02:12:30 16 MR. SIMPSON: Mark the whole thing and I'll 02:14:49 16 Sarah Kellen was the first name.
02:12:30 17 ask you about it. 02:14:52 17 Nadia Marcinkova, Nadia was the first name
0112:30 18 THE WITNESS: That would be great. 02:1453 18 there. Adrianna Mucinska was the full name of those --
02:12:33 19 Absolutely. 0214:58 19 that's the second echelon of the -- of the -- of the
02:12733 20 MR. SIMPSON: All right. I'm going to ask 02:15:00 20 criminal conspiracy.
011215 21 the court reporter to mark as Cassell Exhibit 3, 02:15:06 21 Oh, this refreshes my recollection that
0112:39 22 a one-page document that the witness has just 0/15:08 22 Jeffrey Epstein had answered some questions in the civil
02:12:42 23 handed to me. It's mostly typed. It has some 02:15,11 23 litigation. He provided, for example, names of -- of
0112:44 24 handwriting on it. 02,15:15 24 some people who were involved, but he took the Fifth
02:12:45 25 (Cassell I.D. Exhibit No. 3 - one-page 02:15:18 25 when asked -- he took -- he provided names of some
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021521 1 people who would have relevant information in the civil 02:1860 1 strategy to sort of stall the investigation to say:
02:15:25 2 cases, but when asked in deposition about 0218:03 2 Well, we will get you Epstein; oh, we can't meet now;
02:1629 3 Mr. Dershowitz, he took the Fifth. 02:18:03 3 oh, we will get it now -- and then -- and so forth.
02:15:31 4 So I -- I found it significant that for some 021864 4 And one of the things that I noted from all
02:15:33 5 people, he was willing to answer questions, but with 02:18:06 5 that was that Mr. Dershowitz, as Mr. Epstein's attorney,
0215:35 6 regard to Mr. Dershowitz, he took his -- he invoked his 02:18:09 6 never ultimately produced Epstein for a meeting with the
02:15:39 7 Fifth Amendment right against compelled 0218:14 7 Palm Beach Police Department, having made another offer.
02:15:41 8 self-incrimination presumably because revealing what he 021817 8 Now, obviously, something could have happened
02:15:44 9 knew about Mr. Dershowitz would, you know, cause 02:18:19 9 there. I mean, I don't -- you know, I don't know what
02:15:48 10 criminal -- criminal charges potentially to be filed 02:18:21 10 was the communications and so forth, but as an attorney
02:15:51 11 against him. 02:18:24 11 trying to get information and unable to do that, I had
021652 12 There was a common scheme or plan, and I'll 02:18:26 12 to make some reasonable inferences.
021608 13 elaborate on that in a moment, but yeah, one of -- so 02:18:29 13 And so one of the inferences I began to draw
02:16:14 14 this was another point. I mentioned that -- that there 021631 14 was that this was a stall tactic by Mr. Dershowitz, and
0216:17 15 had been three efforts to get information from 02:18734 15 in my view, potentially, an unethical one, but I
021518 16 Mr. Dershowitz by way of a 2009 deposition request, a 02:1637 16 don't -- I don't think we need to get into that in this
02:16:23 17 2011 deposition request, and further follow-up 02:18:39 17 litigation.
02:16:26 18 correspondence from counsel on that, and a 2013 document 02:18:40 18 What I saw was a stall tactic going on,
02:16:31 19 request all propounded to Mr. Dershowitz that had not 02:18:44 19 and -- and the reason I think it was a stall tactic, as
02:16:34 20 gone answered. 02:18:46 20 we are sitting here now in, what is it, October of 2015,
021635 21 Yeah, and this was -- yeah, I'm sorry, this 02:1651 21 and Mr. Epstein has never been willing to answer
0216:37 22 slipped my mind at the time -- but when -- when we saw 0218:54 22 questions about his sexual abuse of these girls.
02:164O 23 Mr. Dershowitz not responding to these answers, you 02:1868 23 And this was back in around -- what was it?
02:16:44 24 know, maybe the mail didn't get delivered to him or 02:19.01 24 I guess it would be 2005, 2006, you know, roughly a
021646 25 something like that. I don't -- I suppose that's, you 0219:04 25 decade ago, Mr. Dershowitz was offering to make Epstein
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02:18:48 1 know, a theoretical possibility. 02:1607 1 available. And then that never happened, and given the
02:18:50 2 But -- but the reason I ruled out that 02:1511 2 ten-year pattern that -- that developed -- I guess I
02:1652 3 possibility, first, it didn't seem likely; but secondly, 02:1612 3 should go back. I'm sorry. Let me correct my answer.
02:16:55 4 there was a pattern of Mr. Epstein's associates evading 02:19:14 4 We should go back to December 30th, 2014. So
0216:59 5 efforts to get information from them. 02:19:17 5 there -- there appeared to be about an eight-year period
021762 6 And so let me just go back to the earliest 021621 6 of time during which Mr. Epstein had refused to answer
0217:05 7 instance of that. According to the Chief of Police in 021924 7 any questions about his sexual abuse of girls and yet,
02:17:07 8 the Palm Beach -- of the Palm Beach Police Department, 021929 8 Mr. Dershowitz said, oh, it's just a scheduling issue
02:1711 9 Mr. Dershowitz had said that he would make available 02:1630 9 and -- and we will get the Palm Beach Police Department
0217:14 10 Mr. Epstein for questions about the -- the sex, you 021633 10 to -- to, you know, to meet and -- and learn all this.
02:17:18 11 know, abuse that was going on. And, you know, 0219:37 11 The other thing that I'm -- that I'm seeing
02:17:21 12 Mr. Dershowitz had said to the Palm Beach Police 02:19:39 12 here, so now there's -- there's -- Mr. Dershowitz had
021723 13 Department, yeah, we will make him available; no, we got 02:1642 13 been involved in concealing Mr. Epstein from the Palm
0217:25 14 to reschedule it; you know, and then another time, 02:19:46 14 Beach Police Department, but there were others that had
0217:28 15 reschedule, another time. And so there were multiple -- 02:1647 15 done similar sorts of things.
02:17:32 16 according to the Chief of Police, there had been 0219:49 16 So one of them was a Ghislaine Maxwell. I
02:17:34 17 multiple, you know, requests to interview Mr. Epstein 02:19:55 17 will just call her Glenn Maxwell. I think that's kind
021738 18 and Mr. Dershowitz had repeatedly said: Oh, yeah, we 02:19:55 18 of the nickname I understand she goes by.
02:17:41 19 will schedule that, and then it hadn't happened. 02:19:59 19 So Glenn Maxwell -- remember, she is -- she
0217:43 20 Now, obviously, there could have been a 021969 20 is the one, you know, I think the record is clear, in --
82.17:45 21 situation there where, you know, an emergency had come 02:20:03 21 in -- in litigation that, you know, an allegation has
0217:47 22 up for Mr. Epstein and he wasn't able to make a schedule 02:20:06 22 been made that she was the one that -- that brought
0217:49 23 or something like that. But what I saw was a -- was a 02:20708 23 Virginia Roberts into the -- into the sex trafficking,
0217:52 24 pattern of offers to -- to meet and then withdrawals, 0220:1224 and was heavily involved with -- you know, on all the --
0217:55 25 and that seemed to me to be a deliberately calculated 0220:15 25 not all the flights, but on many of the flights with
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0220:17 1 Jeffrey Epstein where -- where this seemed to be going 02:2228 I what his excuse was, but, you know, evaded the
022019 2 on and was very close to Epstein, staying at the mansion 02:22:31 2 deposition and, in fact, later information came to light
02:20:22 3 frequently. 02:2233 3 he was hiding out in, you know, in the mansion of
02:20:23 4 And so she would, obviously, be -- I guess if 02:22:35 4 Epstein while he's claiming he's unavailable for -- for
02:20:25 5 you have Epstein at the -- the top of the -- you know, 02:22:39 5 deposition.
02:20:27 6 the kingpin of the operation, Maxwell would be, you 02:22:39 6 So -- so this pattern of Mr. Dershowitz, you
0220:30 7 know, a close second or certainly at, you know, the 02:22:42 7 know, where there were three attempts to obtain
022012 8 higher echelon. 02:22:44 8 information from him, if that's all I had, I guess that
02:20:33 9 So, obviously, someone who would have, you 022246 9 would have been one thing. But what I had was a pattern
02:20:35 10 know, very significant information about, you know, the 02:2249 10 of people who were implicated in this sex trafficking
02:2018 11 sex trafficking, who were the other people that the -- 02:22:52 11 ring evading questions, you know, quite in violation of
02:20:41 12 the girls were being trafficked to, what kind of abuse 0222:57 12 court orders and depositions and things -- I shouldn't
0220:43 13 was going on, you know, what kinds of sex toys were 0222:58 13 say court order -- in violation of the deposition
0220:46 14 being used to abuse them, because I think it was in her 02:23:01 14 notices that were being sent and agreements being made,
0220:48 15 room or -- or adjacent to her room that many of these -- 0223:03 15 you know, through counsel.
02:2052 16 these devices were located, and so she would have had 02:23:05 16 And then in addition to that, I had this, so
02:20:55 17 very significant information to provide. 02:23:11 17 why -- why would you think that, you know, there's this
02:20:57 18 And so in connection with the civil cases 02:2113 18 sex trafficking, you know, ring going on? It sounds
02:21,00 19 that some of the girls had filed against Mr. Epstein, 0223:17 19 kind of farfetched.
0221:02 20 her deposition was set, in fact, by my co-counsel, 02:23:18 20 Well -- well, one of the things that I had
02:21:05 21 Mr. Edwards, and then there was some haggling over a 0223:19 21 available to me on December 30th was a photograph that
02:21:10 22 confidentiality agreement, you know, what are we 0223:22 22 was widely available on the Internet, and that
02:21:12 23 gonna -- and that had all been worked out, and then she 02:23:26 23 photograph depicted three people.
02:21:14 24 was set for a deposition and finally agreed, you know, 02:23:28 24 It depicted Glenn Maxwell, Prince Andrew, and
02:2116 25 to a deposition. 022134 25 Virginia Roberts, and the -- at the time that it looked
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02:21:17 1 And just shortly, you know, I think a couple 0223:38 1 like Virginia Roberts was an underage girl. She was not
022119 2 of days before that deposition, she canceled. And well, 02:23:43 2 dressed in formal attire. And Prince Andrew had his arm
02:2023 3 she didn't cancel. Her -- her attorney called to cancel 02:23:47 3 around her, I think if memory serves, and right next --
0221:26 4 the deposition and represented that Miss Maxwell was 02:23:52 4 smiling in the background is Miss Maxwell, and it
02:21:30 5 outside the United States of America and had no plans to 02:23:54 5 appeared that that was a private residence, presumably
02:2113 6 return back to the United States. 02:2157 6 in London, close to Buckingham Palace where -- where
0221:35 7 And so, at that point, the deposition was -- 0224,00 7 Prince Andrew lived.
02:21,40 8 was not able to go forward. But it turned out that she 02:24:01 8 And so here was Prince Andrew with this
02:21:43 9 had not left the United States for an extended period of 02,24:03 9 underage girl with Glenn Maxwell, the -- the right-hand
02:21:46 10 time. She was spotted later at a wedding of a prominent 0224:05 10 girl, if that's the right expression -- I probably
02:21:49 11 person in New York. 0224:07 11 should say -- strike that -- right-hand woman of --
02:21:50 12 And so that was Maxwell fitting into this 022411 12 of -- of Mr. Epstein -- that were there and somebody had
02:21:52 13 pattern of, you know, Epstein was being told -- you 02:24:16 13 taken the photograph.
02:21:56 14 know, the Palm Beach Police Department being told by 02:24:17 14 Given the surrounding circumstances, I
02:21:57 15 Dershowitz that Epstein will answer your questions, and 022419 15 thought perhaps Mr. Epstein had taken the photograph.
02:22:00 16 then, you know, not -- not getting information, Maxwell 02:24:21 16 So that would have shown Virginia Roberts's sexual abuse
02:2203 17 evading the deposition. 02:2424 17 was not confined just to Florida, not confined to the
02:22:06 18 Jean Luc Brunel was another person who seemed 02:24:27 18 New York mansion; it would have -- it would have
02:2209 19 to be very much involved in -- in trafficking the girls, 02:24:31 19 presumably continued into London where one of, you know,
02:22:10 20 and it was the same situation. A deposition was set to 02:24:37 20 the highest, most powerful persons in the governmental
02:22:13 21 try to get answers, you know, who is involved, which 02:24.43 21 structure that -- that exists in England was now
02:22:16 22 girls are involved, what are their names, what's -- 02:2447 22 involved in -- in sexual abuse.
0222:17 23 what's going on? 022449 23 And so that created grave concern about, how
02:2216 24 And so Brunel's deposition is set and then 0224,52 24 far did this sex trafficking ring reach; what were their
02:2225 25 he -- he finagles out of it too. I don't recall exactly 022456 25 connections; what were their abilities to influence, you
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02:25:01 1 know, law enforcement agencies in those countries, you 0226:51 1 Mr. Dershowitz was trying to do the same
02:25:04 2 know, in England, or law enforcement agencies in this 02:26:53 2 thing and it is a difficult situation.
02-25:07 3 country, through -- through power that, you know, 0226:55 3 A. All right.
02251 0 4 somebody at that level, fifth I think in line to the 0226,55 4 Q. So I was not trying to make light of the
02:25:15 5 British Throne, would have, you know, presumably access 0226:58 5 questions I'm asking you.
0225:17 6 to levers of power that other people might not -- might 0226:58 6 A. Right. This involves sexual abuse ...-
022521 7 not have. 0226:58 7 Q. I understand that.
02:25:22 8 And so that is the -- I believe is the -- the 0227:01 8 A. -- of multiple girls.
02:25:29 9 information that I had available to me on December 30th 02:27:02 9 Q. I understand that. Your -- I understand the
0225:32 10 involving not just Virginia Roberts, but the entire sex 0227:04 10 allegations that have been made.
02:25:35 11 trafficking organization. 02727:06 11 A. And your side keeps attacking these girls.
02:25:37 12 Q. Okay. And that -- just to clarify again, it 0227:09 12 That's why it's emotional for me.
02,25:42 13 exhausts your refreshed recollection as to both the 02:27:1213 Q. That -- that part is not true, but I will ask
0225:46 14 information you were relying on as to the allegations 02:27:15 14 questions --
02:2048 15 about Virginia Roberts, and as to the allegations about 02:27:15 15 A. I believe that part is true.
0225:52 16 other minors; is that right? 02:27:16 16 THE WITNESS: I would like to take a break.
0525:53 17 A. Correct. 02:2718 17 I'm sorry.
0225:53 18 Q. So I don't have to ask you separately about 0227:15 18 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the video
02:25:55 19 Roberts? 0227,21 19 record, 4:01 p.m.
02:25:56 20 A. That's right. No, and I gave you a heads-up, 02:30:41 20 (Thereupon, a recess was taken.)
02:25:58 21 that was going to be a long answer. 02:30:41 21 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the video
02:26:00 22 Q. You made Mr. Dershowitz look like an amateur. 0220:47 22 record, 4:04 p.m.
02:26:03 23 If I could -- 0230:47 23 (Thereupon, Kenneth A. Sweder, Esquire, Alan
0226:03 24 MR. SCAROLA: I'm sorry. Like a what? 02:30:47 24 M. Dershowitz and Carolyn Cohen left the
02:26:04 25 MR. SIMPSON: Amateur, at the long answers. 02:30:48 25 proceedings.)
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02:26:07 1 THE WITNESS: Well, I wasn't trying to -- let 02:3048 1 MR. SCAROLA: The record should reflect that
02:26:08 2 me be clear. I want the record to be clear: I 02:30:50 2 Mr. and Mrs. Dershowitz have -- are no longer
02:26:11 3 was not trying to filibuster. You asked me a 0230:52 3 present.
02:26:12 4 very direct question which was: I want to know 02:3053 4 MR. SIMPSON: Correct.
02:26:15 5 everything that was in your memory on December 02:30:54 5 MR. SCAROLA: Thank you.
02:26:17 6 30th, and as you can tell, this was a very 02:30-55 6 BY MR. SIMPSON:
022620 7 important subject to me, and its very important 02:30:56 7 Q. Mr. Cassell, would you agree with me that
02:26:21 8 to Miss Roberts, and I wanted to be 02:31:00 8 accusing someone --
0226:24 9 comprehensive. 02:31:03 9 MS. McCAWLEY: Oh, I'm sorry. I just
02:26:25 10 And I gave you the opportunity to say, 0231:04 10 realized that she stepped out to get water, I
02:26:26 11 lets -- let's have a narrower question, and -- 02:31:06 11 believe. I didn't ask. I'm sure its
02:26:28 12 but you wanted the broad question and that's why 02:31:08 12 probably okay - -
0226:30 13 I did this, so I wasn't... 02,31-68 13 THE WITNESS: Its all right.
02:26:30 14 BY MR. SIMPSON: 0231:08 14 MR. SCAROLA: Its all right.
02:26:30 15 Q. Mr. Cassell, I apologize for attempting humor 02:31:11 15 MR. SIMPSON: That's okay with you?
02,26:34 16 in this intense situation. 02:31:11 16 THE WITNESS: Sure.
02:26:35 17 A. This is very important to me. 02:3111 17 BY MR. SIMPSON:
02,26:35 18 Q. I -- I -- I -- 0231:1318 Q. Would you agree with me that accusing a
02:26:36 19 A. This is not -- this is not something that I 02:3117 19 person of -- an adult of engaging in sex with a minor is
02:26:38 20 find funny. 02,3124 20 a serious accusation?
02:26140 21 Q. And -- well, it -- like I say, its very 02:31:26 21 A. Sure.
02:26:43 22 important to Mr. Dershowitz, or Professor Dershowitz 02:31:27 22 Q. And would you agree with me that the cause of
02:26:45 23 also. He was trying to answer questions. I'm not 02:31,33 23 Victims' Rights is harmed and not furthered by false
0226:47 24 questioning that you were trying to answer my question, 02:31:39 24 allegations of sexual abuse?
0226:49 25 and I appreciate it. 02:31,11 25 A. Sure.
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Exhibit 4
152 1 APPEARANCES CONTINUED
154
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SEVENTEENTH 2
2
JUDICIAL CIRCUIT IN AND FOR
BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA
3
3 CASE NO. CACE 15-000072
Telephonically on behalf of Jeffrey Epstein:
DARREN K. INDYKE, PLLC
4 4 BY: DARREN K. INDYKE, ESQUIRE
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
BRADLEY J. EDWARDS and PAUL G. CASSELL,
5
575 Lexington Avenue
4th Floor
Plaintiffs/Counterclaim Defendants, New York, New York 10022
vs. 6 Tel: 212.971.1314
ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ, 7
Defendant/Counterclaim Plaintiff. 8
Also Present:
DON SAVOY, Videographer
12 9 BRADLEY 3. EDWARDS
13 ALAN M. DERSHOWITZ (Telephonically)
14 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
15 PAUL G. CASSELL
16 TAKEN ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT 12
17 VOLUME II, PAGES 152 to 335 13
18
19
20 Saturday, October 17, 2015 17
21 8:32 a.m. - 12:14 p.m. 18
22
19
23
425 North Andrews Avenue
Suite 2
Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301
20
21
24 22
25 Theresa Tomaselli, RMR 23
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(954) 331-4400 ESQUIRE DEPOSITION SOLUTIONS
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1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION
2
On behalf of the Plaintiffs:
2 WITNESS PAGE
3
SEARCY DENNEY SCAROLA
3 PAUL G. CASSELL
4 BARNHART & SHIPLEY, P.A.
BY: JOHN SCAROLA, ESQUIRE 4 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION 160
5 2139 Palm Beach Lakes Boulevard BY MR. SIMPSON
West Palm Beach, Florida 33409 5
6 Tel: 561.686.6300
7
Fax: 561.383.9541
E-m ail: m ep@ searcylaw .com
6 INDEX TO EXHIBITS
8
On behalf of Virginia Roberts:
9
7
8
EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE
BOIES SCHILLER & FLEXNER, LLP
10 BY: SIGRID STONE McCAW LEY, ESQUIRE 9
401 East Las Olas Boulevard Cassell's I.D. Exhibit No. 4 - document 203
11 Suite 1200 10 produced by the witness
Fort Lauderdale, Florida 33301
12
13
Tel: 954.356.0011
Fax: 954.356.0022
E-m ail: sm ccaw ley@ bsfllp.com
11
12
Cassell's I.D. Exhibit No. 5 - copy of 229
address book
14
Cassell's I.D. Exhibit No. 6 - series of 309
On behalf of the Defendant: 13 e-mails, Bates numbered BE-510 - -514
15
WILEY REIN LLP 14
16 BY: RICHARD A. SIMPSON, ESQUIRE
AND: NICOLE A. RICHARDSON, ESQUIRE 15
17 1776 K Street Northwest
18
Washington, DC 20006
Tel: 202.719.7000
16
19
Fax: 202.719.7049
E-m ail: rsim pson@ w ileyrein.com
17
20 18
Also on behalf of the Defendant:
21
19 (Original Exhibits have been attached to the
COLE, SCOTT & KISSANE, P.A.
original transcript.)
22 BY: THOMAS EMERSON SCOTT, 3R., ESQUIRE 20
23
24
9150 South Dadeland Boulevard
Dadeland Centre II - Suite 1400
Miami, Florida 33156
Tel: 305.350.5329
21
22
23
24
Fax: 305.373.2294
25 E-m ail: thorn as.scott@csklegal.com 25
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11
14
15
16
24
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1 DEPOSITION OF PAUL G. CASSELL 00:02:01 1 never thought to record it, but that's fine.
0002:04 2 MR. SIMPSON: We don't -- we don't need to
2 Saturday, October 17, 2015
000205 3 make that --
00:02:05 4 MR. SCAROLA: We don't need to discuss that.
3
00:0206 5 The question is --
4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now on the video
00:0206 6 MR. SIMPSON: What you're saying does --
00:00:01 5 record. Today is Saturday, the 17th day of
0002'06 7 MR. SCAROLA: -- are you going to produce the
00:00:03 6 October, 2015. The time is 8:32 a.m. We are
mom 7 here at 425 North Andrews Avenue, Fort
00:021,8 8 recording without the necessity of a new request
0002:10
00:00:10 8 Lauderdale, Florida, for the purpose of taking 9 to produce, or will it be necessary for us to
00:0213
00:00:11 9 the videotaped deposition of Paul G. Cassell. 10 file a new request to produce?
00:0014 10 The case is Bradley J. Edwards and Paul
00:02:15 11 MR. SIMPSON: As Mr. Scott indicated
00:00:17 11 G. Cassell versus Alan M. Dershowitz. 00:02:17 12 yesterday, we will respond to you to the
00:00:19 12 The court reporter is Terry Tomaselli, and 00:02:19 13 discovery request. We will confer at a break and
00:00:20 13 the videographer is Don Savoy, both from Esquire 00:02:23 14 respond to that question. I don't want to take
00:00:23 14 Deposition Solutions. 0002:24 15 time on the record debating it. After Mr. Scott
0000:24 15 Will counsel please announce their
000228 16 and I have conferred at a break, we will respond
00:00,26 16 appearances for the record.
00:02:29 17 further to your question.
00:00:27 17 MR. SCAROLA: Jack Scarola on behalf of the
00:02:30 18 MR. SCAROLA: All right. So that the record
00:0030 18 Plaintiffs.
00:02:31 19 is clear, it is our position that the recording
00:0030 19 MR. SIMPSON: Richard Simpson of Wiley Rein
00.02,35 20 itself, any evidence of any communication between
00,0335 20 on behalf of the Defendant and Counterclaim
00:02:40 21 Mr. Dershowitz and Rebecca and/or Michael, any
000038 21 Plaintiff, Alan Dershowitz. With me is my
00,00:39 22 colleague, Nicole Richardson, and Thomas Scott of
00:02:45 22 notes with respect to any such communications,
00:0260
00:00:44 23 Cole, Scott & Kissane, also for Mr. -- Professor
23 text messages, e-mails, and an accurate privilege
000257
00,0048 24 Dershowitz. 24 log as to everything that is being withheld is
00:00:50 25 MR. SCAROLA: Before we begin the deposition,
000101 25 responsive to the earlier request to produce, and
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0000:52 1 we were informed for the first time yesterday 00:03:04 1 that the obligation was to have provided it to us
00:0055 2 morning of the existence of a recording of a 00:0108 2 previously and is to provide it to us now.
00:01:01 3 telephone communication between Alan Dershowitz 00:03:11 3 We understand that you're considering that
00:01:05 4 and a woman identified only as Rebecca. 000313 4 and you will respond, so we can proceed with the
00:01:10 5 That information was conveyed to us 00:03:15 5 deposition.
00:01:13 6 subsequent to Professor Dershowitz's sworn 00:03:16 6 MR. SIMPSON: Yes. And we disagree about
000116 7 testimony that no recording existed, but now that 000117 7 that, and as you know, we have a motion to compel
00:01:20 8 we know that the recording existed and that it 00:0319 8 regarding your inadequate privilege log.
00:01:23 9 was obviously made according to the 00:03:24 9 MS. McCAWLEY: Just before we begin, I'm
00:01:25 10 representations given to us, prior to the 00:0324 10 sorry, I didn't announce my appearance for the
00:01:29 11 completion of the responses to our earlier 00:03:24 11 record. Sigrid McCawley from Boies, Schiller &
00:01:31 12 discovery requests, I would like to know whether 00:0328 12 Flexner, and I have a standing objection that I'd
00:01:34 13 it is the Defendant's position that it is 00:03:31 13 just like to repeat on the record.
00:01:37 14 necessary for us to propound a new discovery 00:03:32 14 MR. SCOTT: Feel better that you got that off
00.01:40 15 request to get information that clearly should 00:0132 15 your chest?
0001:43 16 have been disclosed in response to the earlier 00:03:32 16 MS. McCAWLEY: With respect to -- excuse me.
00:01:46 17 discovery request. 00:03:34 17 With respect to my client, Virginia Roberts,
00:01:47 18 Is that the position that you're taking? 000337 18 she is asserting her attorney/client privilege
00:01:48 19 MR. SIMPSON: First, Mr. Scarola, I believe 00:0339 19 with her attorneys and is not waiving it through
00:01:50 20 you have mischaracterized Professor Dershowitz's 00:03:41 20 any testimony here today, and that I object to
00:01:53 21 testimony. You didn't ask the question whether 00:0344 21 any testimony elicited that would be used as a
0001;55 22 he made a recording. Yesterday morning, he 000147 22 subject of waiver for her attorney/client
00:01:57 23 provided that information in response to a 000348 23 privilege.
00:01:59 24 different question. 24 MR. SIMPSON: Would you reswear the witness,
00:02:00 25 MR. SCAROLA: His exact testimony was: I 25 please?
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1 Thereupon, 0005,28 1 Q. And when you say "all day," what time period
2 PAUL G. CASSELL, 00:05:31 2 are you referring to?
3 having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified 00:0632 3 A. 9:00 to 5:00.
4 as follows: 00:05:33 4 Q. 9:00 to 5:00. Okay. And was that through
5 THE WITNESS: I do. 00:05:38 5 lunch; you just stayed through eight hours; is that --
6 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION 000040 6 what's your recollection of that?
7 BY MR. SIMPSON: 00:05:41 7 A. Yeah, I remember we were working very hard
00:04:01 8 Q. Good morning -- 00:05:43 8 on -- on it, so I think we had, if I recall correctly,
00:04:01 9 A. Good morning. 00,05:46 9 had lunch brought in and worked straight through that.
00:04:01 10 Q. -- Mr. Cassell. 00:0049 10 Q. Any other meetings in person with
00:04:03 11 As of December 30th, 2014, had you ever met 00:05:53 11 Miss Roberts before December 30th of 2014?
00:04:08 12 with Virginia Roberts in person? 00:0557 12 A. No.
00:04:10 13 A. Yes. 00:05:57 13 Q. Any telephone calls with her that you -- you
00:04:10 14 Q. And how many times had you met with her in 000003 14 had, obviously, before December 30th, 2014?
00:04,14 15 person? 00:06:07 15 A. I believe there were a couple of -- of
00:04:14 16 A. Once. 00,06:09 16 telephone calls.
00,04:15 17 Q. When was that? 000609 17 Q. And can you tell us when those were?
0004:16 18 A. Approximately May 2014. 00:06:12 18 A. Let's see. Roughly September 2014. Give or
00:04:20 19 Q. May of 2014? 00,06:18 19 take a month. I mean, you know, sometime after May and
00:04:21 20 A. Yes. 00:06:22 20 before December 30th.
00:04:21 21 Q. Who was present for that meeting? 00:06:23 21 Q. Okay. And were those telephone calls between
00:04:24 22 A. I'm just pausing for a second because I 0006:2722 just you and Miss Roberts, or was anyone else on the
00:04:28 23 don't -- I think we're -- 00:0601 23 line?
00:04:28 24 Q. I -- I'm not -- 00:06:32 24 A. No. It was just the two of -- just
00:04:30 25 A. -- clearly not trying to get into 0006:34 25 Miss Roberts and I.
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00:04:31 1 attorney/client communication. 000605 1 Q. Okay. And are you able to distinguish the
00:04:32 2 Q. I'm not asking you for what was said at this 00:0608 2 calls in your mind as two separate telephone calls?
00:04,34 3 point. I'm just asking you who was present. I'm going 00:0040 3 A. I -- I think there were either one or two
0004:36 4 to ask you where it was, those kind of questions. 000043 4 calls. I think there may have been two, but it -- it
00:04:39 5 A. Sure. Yeah. The main person who was present 0006:46 5 would not have been more than two that I can recall.
0004:42 6 was Bradley J. Edwards, my Co-Plaintiff in this case. 0006:49 6 Q. Okay. How long did each of the telephone
00:04:45 7 Q. Okay. And Miss Roberts obviously was 00:06:51 7 calls last?
00:04:47 8 present? 0006:52 8 A. Less than five minutes.
00:04:47 9 A. Yes. 0006704 9 Q. I'm going to ask you a question now, but
00:0448 10 Q. Anyone else present? 00:06:59 10 before you answer it, pause, because I believe you will
0004,49 11 A. You know, there were -- this was at the 00:07:01 11 be instructed not to answer it --
00:04:53 12 Farmer, Jaffee office here, and so persons who were 00,07:03 12 A. Okay.
00:04,56 13 associated with the law firm were assisting, but those 00:07:03 13 Q. -- but want to -- I think -- we disagree on
00:05:00 14 were the main people. 00:07:07 14 the privilege --
00:05:00 15 Q. Okay. Do you remember any of those other 0007:07 15 A. Sure.
00:05:02 16 people associated with the law firm who were present? 00:07:07 16 Q. -- we believe it's been waived.
00:05:05 17 A. Present for, you know, coming in and 0007:07 17 My question is: During the meeting, did you
00:05:08 18 assisting, I believe Brad's assistant, Maria, was there, 00:07:11 18 discuss Professor Dershowitz?
00:05:13 19 and perhaps others at the firm, but it was -- it was 00:07:13 19 MS. McCAWLEY: I'm going to object to any
00:05,17 20 basically Brad and I. 00:07:15 20 discussion of what my client told you during any
00:05:18 21 Q. Was there anyone else who attended for the 00:07:19 21 situation where you were representing her as
00:05:21 22 entire meeting or a substantial portion of the meeting? 0007:21 22 an -- an attorney.
00:05:2323 A. No. 00:07:22 23 MR. SIMPSON: So -- and I think we had an
00:05:23 24 Q. Okay. How long did the meeting last? 0007,24 24 agreement yesterday, if you follow your own
mos:26 25 A. Approximately all day. 00:07:28 25 counsel's instruction on not answering, are you
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00:07:28 1 also going to follow Miss McCawley's instructions 0009:08 1 and all that goes into the advice that they were
00:07:32 2 on not answering on behalf of -- 00:09:08 2 giving her and surrounding that advice, so I
00:0712 3 MR. SCAROLA: Mr. Cassell will follow the 00:0911 3 would object to that.
00:07:36 4 instructions of Virginia Roberts' counsel. It is 00:09:12 4 MR. SCAROLA: Could I have the question read
0007:38 5 not his privilege to waive, and he is ethically 0009:15 5 back?
00,07,42 6 obliged to respect the direction coming from 00:0915 6 (Thereupon, a portion of the record was read
00:07:46 7 Virginia Roberts' counsel. 00:09:15 7 by the reporter.)
00:07:48 8 MR. SIMPSON: Yes, I'm -- I'm simply, 00:09:33 8 MS. McCAWLEY: And I would like to clarify
00:07:49 9 Mr. Scarola, making my record that the witness -- 00:0933 9 what case as well that you're referring to.
00:07:52 10 MR. SCAROLA: I understand that. 000034 10 MR. SIMPSON: All right. Let me ask the
000752 11 MR. SIMPSON: Right. We disagree. 00:09:36 11 question, and -- and I will note for the record
00:07:53 12 MR. SCAROLA: I understand, but you can 0009:38 12 that yesterday, the witness testified that the
0007:54 13 assume the same way I have authorized you to 00:0040 13 fact that Mr. Boies was representing Virginia
00:07:58 14 assume that Professor Cassell will follow my 00:09:42 14 Roberts was significant to him. So it's sort of
oo,oe:oi 15 instructions, Professor Cassell will also follow 00:0047 15 being used as a sword and a shield here, but I
0008:04 16 all instructions concerning the assertion of 00:09,48 16 have only asked the question. I'll clarify.
00:08:07 17 attorney/client privilege expressed on the record 00:09:48 17 MR. SCAROLA: We haven't used it any way yet.
00:08:10 18 by Miss McCawley on behalf of Virginia Roberts. 00:09:51 18 MR. SIMPSON: Well, the -- the witness
00:08:13 19 MR. SIMPSON: All right. 00:09:52 19 volunteered. Shall I put it that way? And we
00:08:14 20 BY MR. SIMPSON: 00:0954 20 have a waiver.
00:0816 21 Q. So, Mr. Cassell, based on that, I will assume 00:0054 21 BY MR. SIMPSON:
00:08:21 22 that if I ask you what you recall the discussion being 00:09:55 22 Q. But, in any event, my question is: Have you
00:08:24 23 at the meeting or at each of the phone calls, that 00:09:58 23 spoken -- before December 30th of 2014, had you spoken
00:0829 24 you're not going to answer those questions; is that 00:10:02 24 with David Boies about Virginia Roberts' allegations
00:08:29 25 correct? 00:10:06 25 regarding Professor Dershowitz?
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00:08:29 1 MS. McCAWLEY: Yes. 00:10:10 1 MR. SCAROLA: Without getting into the
0008:30 2 THE WITNESS: Yeah, obviously not. 001013 2 substance of any such discussions, you can answer
00:08:30 3 BY MR. SIMPSON: 001016 3 that question.
00:08:30 4 Q. Okay. 001017 4 THE WITNESS: My recollection is no.
00:08:32 5 A. I mean, I have a duty to my client which I'm 00:10:20 5 MR. SCOTT: I think you're right on that one.
0008:36 6 going to respect. 001020 6 BY MR. SIMPSON:
00:08:36 7 Q. All right. So we'll -- we'll take that up 001022 7 Q. Okay. So the answer is, no, you had not
00:08:37 8 later with the judge. 00:10:23 8 spoken with him?
00:08:39 9 As of December 30th, 2014, had you spoken 00,1023 9 A. My recollection --
00:08:44 10 about this case with David Boies, and the question is 00:10:24 10 MR. SCAROLA: Judge Scott has issued a
00:08:47 11 just: Had you spoken -- 0010:27 11 ruling, so "-
0008:48 12 MS. McCAWLEY: Objection. 001029 12 MR. SCOTT: I wrote several opinions on that
00:08:48 13 BY MR. SIMPSON: 001029 13 actually.
00:08:50 14 Q. -- not what the discussion was. 00:10:29 14 MR. SCAROLA: -- we'll proceed.
00:08,91 15 MS. McCAWLEY: Objection. It's the 00:10:29 15 THE WITNESS: Let me go back -
00:08:52 16 common-interest privilege. 00:10:29 16 MR. SCOTT: In the context of criminal
00:08:52 17 BY MR. SIMPSON: 0010:33 17 lawyers.
0008:53 18 Q. I'm only asking if there was a discussion, no 00:10:33 18 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to remember if I
0008:55 19 substance at all. Just, was there a discussion? 00:10:34 19 wrote any opinions on that one when I was a
00,08:58 20 MS. McCAWLEY: I'm going to instruct you not 0010;36 20 judge. My -- I don't recall, but -- I don't
00:0000 21 to answer that. 0010:41 21 recall. I -- my recollection is I had not
00:0001 22 MR. SIMPSON: Okay. You're taking the 00:10:42 22 personally spoken to David Boies before December
00:0002 23 position that the fact of whether or not -- 00:10:44 23 30th, 2014.
000004 24 MS. McCAWLEY: Yes, because you're also 0010:44 24 BY MR. SIMPSON:
00:09:05 25 trying to get into the timing of communications,
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00:10:45 25 Q. Okay. Had you, before December 30th of 2014,
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00:10:53 1 spoken with any other lawyers at Mr. Boies' firm? 00:1464 1 record, 8:47 a.m.
00:10:58 2 A. My recollection is, no. 00:14:54 2 MR. SCAROLA: As it turns out, while we may
0611:02 3 Q. And after December 30th of 2014, have you 00:14:57 3 reach some issue of privilege at some point in
00:11:08 4 spoken with Mr. Boies about Virginia Roberts's 00:14:59 4 this discussion, the answer to your pending
00:11:13 5 allegations against -- 00:15:01 5 question is, no, so there's no privilege concern.
00:11:15 6 MS. McCAWLEY: Again, I'm going to object. 00:15:04 6 MR. SIMPSON: All right. I'll -- I'll ask
00:11:15 7 BY MR. SIMPSON: 00:1606 7 the witness for the --
0611:16 8 Q. -- Professor Dershowitz? 00:15:07 8 MR. SCAROLA: Sure.
00:11:19 9 MS. McCAWLEY: Sorry. I will let you finish. 00:15:08 9 MR. SIMPSON: -- the -- the answer. I'll
0011:19 10 I'm objecting to this. I think it gets into 00:15:10 10 move to -- I'll reask the question.
00:11:20 11 the substance of conversations under the 00:15:11 11 THE WITNESS: Sure. That will be good.
00:11:24 12 common-interest privilege, whether there was a 00:15:11 12 BY MR. SIMPSON:
00:11:25 13 conversation, but you're getting into the 00:15:12 13 Q. My question is: I believed you had already
00:11:27 14 substance of what the conversation was about, and 00:15:15 14 answered the question as to before December 30th, 2014,
00:11:28 15 I think that is a violation of her -- her 00:15:19 15 you had discussed Miss Roberts' allegations against